S5 Ep. 304 Do You Believe In Nigeria?

SPEAKER_05: Good morning. Good afternoon. Good evening. Good everything. Welcome to the World Cafe Live Show. Yes, recently I've been doing outdoors film just to add a little, you know, spice to what we do. Welcome once again. So this is a special edition on the show dedicated to Nigeria, my country. Yes, our independence. And I'm not alone on set today. I have amazing and phenomenal individuals with me on set today. So we'll be talking, we'll be discussing. Well, before we kick started, you know what, you know my name already, but I'll allow them to introduce themselves and we start from there. Permit me to go in this order. The only female in I mean, in our meetings on the panel, we'll begin with her, then we'll go towards the end and come back this way. So, Toby, you have the floor. SPEAKER_01: Okay. He has already started. My name is Toby Kayode, and I am a writer, and I work with on productions essentially. SPEAKER_02: Welcome. Well, my name is Alo Uluagbenga. I'm a broadcast engineer. Thank you. SPEAKER_03: Okay, the name is uh Olamide Adeyamiya Yotuga. I'm an engineer and also a consultant, business consultant. SPEAKER_06: My name is Kenechuku Agu. I'm a lawyer, a law teacher, and a development consultant. SPEAKER_05: He didn't say what we know him for. Don't worry, I'll say that at the end of the show. His many things added to what he just said. So we'll be talking about our country today. And the topic of this course is do you believe in Nigeria? And I'm going to start this with Toby, the lady in our midst. Do you believe in Nigeria? SPEAKER_01: Yes, I do. I do believe in Nigeria. You do? Yes, I do. Why I believe in Nigeria? SPEAKER_05: Why do you believe in Nigeria? SPEAKER_01: Nigeria is a very, Nigeria has everything it needs to succeed. We have the natural resources, we have the human resources, and um more encouragingly, recently, you have a we have a very young population, and that young population is obviously very invested or more invested now in what's happening in Nigeria. Yes, you have people that live and Jackba, but we have a more politically conscious youth who are, like I said, very invested in what happens here and how we can move this country forward. So, yeah, I believe that's with time, with the kind of people that we have now, I believe Nigeria can work, and I believe in this country. I believe in the project of Nigeria. SPEAKER_05: She believes in it, Kenai? She believes in it. But when you sense the pulse or take the pulse of the nation, do you think percentage-wise, we have a good population who believe in Nigeria? SPEAKER_06: Oh, well, I haven't conducted any research on that, uh, but I would think that if you feel the pause or you promphilas that you get in a lot of persons, um, even though they believe in this country, want to leave this country and come back when it's better. So if you had asked me if I believed in Nigeria myself, I would have answered that I believe in the potentials of uh Nigeria. Because as it is today, um Nigeria has the youngest, youngest population in Africa, and of course, the in the world, in the sense that we have a population who are between 18 to 30. They are um we are the highest in the world. So looking at what that can do for us gives you hope. Looking at uh what the Nigeria what the nation can become gives you hope. But if we're looking at it as it is today, uh so many people may not be tempted to believe in the Nigeria of today. But for the hope that is set ahead of us, I think we believe we believe in the potentials of the country. SPEAKER_05: Menga, what do you have to say to what he just said now? The potential. SPEAKER_02: Well, the the potential, when you talk about potential, you talk about uh human potential, you know, and uh uh natural uh natural potentials in terms of uh natural resources that is uh very much available. Um for example, um we are blessed in this country. We are blessed. Uh I was involved in uh a uh to cover an event somewhere in Nasarawa State, you know, and and you it might interest you to know that Nasarawa State has, I think in Africa, the highest deposit of lithium, you know, and not to talk of some other uh resources, you know, and now we are talking about uh alternative energy, you know, and lithium is a source, uh is a raw material you use in producing batteries, you know. I mean batteries for your for your inverter and so on. So imagine if the value chain is completed, not just coming to export raw materials outside to produce battery and bring back to Nigeria. We have the raw material and we are also producing these batteries. You know, if the value chain is completed, what it can bring back to us. Just only lithium alone, not to talk of other resources around the country. So uh that tells me that we are we are blessed. We are blessed in natural resources. All we need is the uh the government to unnearse the right government and leadership that will make sure that everything goes round. Not only natural resources, you know, and human capital. I mean, we are also blessed even with spiritual capital. This nation has produced great men and women of God that is making impact uh uh all around the world. I was listening to a TV uh broadcast and where uh Krifrodola mentioned a man of God's name in Nigeria, Bishop Oyedepo. I mean, for somebody in in the US to be mentioning, you know, a black, I mean a Nigerian name, it means that person has made an impact. So spiritual capital, human capital, you know, I mean, doctors, I mean, people are now going out of the country in search of greener pastures. Why are we leaving, you know, our developing our own country? We are blessed with human capital, natural resources, and even spiritual capital. So that's what makes me to really say that, or feel that, I mean, uh, to say I believe so much in this country. SPEAKER_05: Allow me the capital was missing. They all somehow said that they believe in the country, but capital. So what's that missing link? Why haven't we been able to convert this capital is in potential now? Why haven't we? SPEAKER_04: Well, um when you say capital, like in business, the only thing that transforms capital into profits, and profits can be monetary and otherwise, is the human side of it. SPEAKER_08: Yeah. SPEAKER_04: Which is basically just an organization. Um somebody can see a portion of land, and another person will say, oh no, no, this is not good enough. But another person will see it and you see it in a different way, I'll be like, okay, there's something I can get out of it. Now, just like he said, Now, I has always had lithium, it wasn't today they just discovered it. But how come it was under this that they just said all of a sudden let's stop exporting it as raw material? But right now, let's turn it into uh something finished that we internally start benefiting from. So it's just about how you organ who is organizing capital, you know. Okay, right now we are here together. We came a little late, but somebody made sure that here was already attended to. Another person could be in charge of this place and don't be like, oh, they might come. SPEAKER_07: By the time I get here, everything done. SPEAKER_04: I'm going to prepare, I'm going to set things uh uh uh you know for the if I hear you correct, it has investment you're talking about. SPEAKER_05: Yes, capital for you to make profit means that capital has been invested. Yes, like there is this investment. Toby, what do you think is our problem in Nigeria? From everything we've said now, there's a problem somewhere. What's the problem? SPEAKER_01: What's is the problem that Nigeria faces? Recently, I I believe that Nigerians are Nigeria's biggest problem. SPEAKER_05: Nigerians are Nigeria's problems. Are Nigeria's biggest problem? SPEAKER_01: The thing is, I feel like it's so easy for us to blame government for problems, right? However, we need to understand that working nations have a combination of two things visionary leadership and a willing citizen view, right? Working together towards a common goal for the nation. Most Nigerians don't have that sense of I would say patriotism, because patriotism isn't just about love for your nation, it's also about civic responsibility and taking responsibility for your country. Most Nigerians don't do that, right? So something as simple as okay, look at Adima, for instance, not so far from here. Closing hours, going back home is a nightmare. Because the average Nigerian, I want to get to my own place as quickly as possible. Excuse my language, damn the consequences for everybody else. This place is a two-lane road. By 6 p.m. It's a five-lane road in one direction, right? It can't work like that. Nigeria needs people to. Nigeria needs Nigerians to be one invested in what happens here and to be willing to do the things to make a nation work, essentially. And I think as long as we continue to have that conflict where Nigerians are selfish and Nigerians don't don't care about the collective good, this country cannot move forward as fast. SPEAKER_05: Nigerians are Nigerians' problem. Yes. We are ethnically diverse. Kenneth, from what she has said, do you think Nigerians see themselves more ethnocentric than Nigeria-centric? SPEAKER_06: I think we need to even decide if we are a nation or we are a state. Okay. Because at the moment we claim to be a nation-state or a state nation. We have not yet understood how that will work. And it's easy for us to think about in the UK, where Scotland and Wales are trying to even pull away and be on their own. You discover that the question about nationhood is not just a Nigerian or an African problem. One other thing we so much have in this country is what I would also call clanish heroism. You know, the idea of breaking into groups so that you can be relevant. Not putting in the effort to become relevant in the larger space, but trying to see how you want to be the king of your own domain. Yeah. You want to, you know, so when you break it, when you break it and you take parts of it, you now become chairman of your own area. And that makes sense to you, to people, right? So I think the issues about our ethnicity should be a blessing rather than a curse. But um I try to look at the root of things. We got where we are today, not just because we are that way. There are activities, the military era, the coup, and counter-codes, and ethnic coloration that it had. So it would be a thing of um, it will we must take a deliberate step if we want people to think Nigeria first. You know, in the time past, we had people who tried to get that into, you know, by orientation, reorientation, but it would seem that we are still we are still looking at where we are from first. For instance, why should we have a state of origin and local government of origin in forms that have nothing to do with ethnicity? Why should I say where I'm from? You know, I I was at next the other day to see something, and I saw a lady who was sharing flyers, you know, um, started asking where I was from. And I mean, I said I'm Nigerian. And she said, Oh, I might be your sister. I say, You are my sister because you are Nigerian. And she kept trying to pro, even go to the extent of telling me her own local government, her own village. I told her I'm in Nigerian. So the the the it's it's it's an orientation problem. It's a we need to get that, and we have to get that from the start. SPEAKER_05: All right, we're gonna take a break now and change our set, then we will get back. All right. Life can be so interesting. Now you see me? I see me not. You guys were out there, and all of a sudden we're in here. Well, life threw a challenge at us, and we have to respond, and that's why we're here. But we're still having that conversation, and uh, we're going to start from where we stopped, you know. And that was where my dear brother and friend Kenneth was talking about clanish heroism. And I want him to finish that thought, then we'll pick it up from there again. SPEAKER_06: About um I found is that everybody wants to be um the king of a place. So, I mean, that explains why we have so many autonomous communities where there is uh you could find two communities, the same language, the same history, the same ancestry, the same everything, but they are different autonomous communities uh because someone wants to be the king. Um so but Sclandish heroism, it's one of the things that has rubbed off us, rubbed off, robbed us of our nationhood. Um so, for instance, uh some argue that we are not a nation, that we are multi-nations in the state of Nigeria. Uh, but that is not the original uh uh configuration of the country. If we wanted to be that way, we would have been um from the beginning. And some people will argue, okay, that wasn't our choice, but we can also take away from the fact that the people who were then at that time were happy with what was on the ground. So if we are thinking that you know what we have met on ground is not really doing us good, what we need to do is to come together to think of how to move it forward. But we are really, um, I don't think we are a nation. We are carrying out things as a nation yet. We are more ethnic than we are, more um nation-centric. unknown: Yeah. SPEAKER_05: Toby, you're the youngest amongst us here. You're the Gen Z, so to say. And you're the woman here. From what he's saying, you know, when we went uh took a short break, we're talking you you did regional regional government, yes. You think he paid us better than what we have now and why? SPEAKER_01: I think then when we had the north speak like you were there then. No, I have to. SPEAKER_05: Exactly, because somehow you've gotten history and all of that. Yes. Asking you this question is because of the the place you are in terms of age, demography in Nigeria than like your time traveling, so to say. SPEAKER_01: Yes. Do I think it works better? I would I might argue that. I feel like when you because in regional governments you have to capitalize on what your region has to move your region forward while also contributing to the center. But you guys have to build yourselves up within that place. So when you have someone like Amadubelo doing the northernalization policy, where northerners have to be educated so that they can work in these positions rather than people from other places coming to do that. You build their capacity, you you build them up when you have in the what you have in the West with what you had in the West with Awolo before the breakdown. You build your capacity on that side. So where everyone is able to build themselves according to their pace before we now come together. We're going to have this, or we have this issue in Nigeria. We were talking about earlier. I was mentioning earlier how Nigeria's a Nigeria's problem, how we have a very selfish tribal mindset, right? So when you now bring us all together, and then you now say, oh, yes, we understand that these this resource particularly comes from this area, and we acknowledge it and we appreciate it. However, you have to contribute to everyone. I now feel a bit cheated because you say that I contribute this huge amount to this country, but my own area is not developed. We have these issues, you guys are not addressing it, but everybody else is benefiting from it, and you feel so I think in a sense, that system of governments could help, in the sense that you are now forced to capitalize on what you have, your own human capital, and build it forward. I think that's a Okay, so go on. SPEAKER_06: I was just gonna say that um Please feel free to jump in. We would we would have to um separate the regional government as a system of government and as a means of resource control. SPEAKER_08: Okay. SPEAKER_06: Um as a system of government, it may not really have been the best. Uh, because for instance, when a certain region says, oh, okay, only people from my region should get takes away our nationalism. If I'm Nigerian, I should be able to travel to any part of the country and be able to get a job. SPEAKER_00: Okay. SPEAKER_06: Right? But if we are dealing with um rather than having a fed We may not be looking at a confederation, which is what basically what um uh uh who chalted about the Aburi Accord and all of that. If we have a confederation, it means we the the the units are stronger, so to say, than the central government. And I dare say that is one of the things the current government under President Um Bola Ahmed Tinibu is doing. He's giving a lot of powers to the governors, he's giving a lot of funds to the states, even so much so that the ministries are beginning to complain, the federal ministries are beginning to complain that they are not seeing the resources. But again, who are the people managing the resources at that level? Because if we're talking about going into that system, again, we had people who were nationalists. Even though Amadubelo, even though Zig, even though Michael Opara, even though Awolo leading regions, you could see a semblance of nationalism in them. They fought for the independence of Nigeria. So it's now, okay, since we've now gotten independence, my people will say you must get the room first before you begin to fight over who sleeps on the bed. So they've now gotten the room and they now decided to, you know, start scampering, so to say. But at this point, after these years of independence, we are at a point where we have a group of leaders who we are not even sure are our leaders. And when people do not trust a system, when people do not trust how a system came into being, the legitimacy of that system is in question. And no matter what government does, it wouldn't be appreciated. So for instance, the president might have done so much well, but because some in some quarters they feel we didn't vote this guy, he's always trying to prove himself. So first, if we begin to think of ourselves as Nigerian, I mean, why is it that when we travel out of this country and you see any black man, the tendency is to ask him, Are you Nigerian? You're not asking, Are you Igbo? You're not asking, are you Yoruba? You're not asking, Are you Ausa? It's when we return to Nigeria that we are now that we are now beginning to think of where are you from. SPEAKER_05: I want you to hold that thought. So when before we came on as in putting this uh session together, I was this friend and a brother who is on set with me about uh who is a Nigerian. SPEAKER_07: That was a question. SPEAKER_05: We're talking in pr in preparation for this. Who is a Nigerian? And I was trying to explain to him that what you just said now, I've been out of this country a couple of times. And when I find myself outside, I'm a Nigerian. That's the truth. When I see a Nigerian or when we see ourselves, we are Nigerians. So when we come back in, like through the Sahara Desert, the flight is coming in, we just all realize that suddenly where you are from begins to show. I'm a Yoruba man. I'm an ajo man. So the question is who is a Nigerian? And I'm going to ask that question again to Olamide and said, who is a Nigerian? SPEAKER_07: Well, you said it. When we are here, Olamide is a man from Jabufe. SPEAKER_04: Because just like I said, they've always asked me on the phone, uh, what local government are you from? What state are you from? So every day I have to keep that uh knowledge in my head. Even when growing up, I first didn't even know that it was Ijabufe. I just knew it was a good state. But after a while, I had to know that it's from Ijabufe. I had to know my even my local government, down to the local government that I was from, just to give me, I don't know why it was so important then. So, but that's what happens. But the Nigerian, and it's a good question which you ask. Do you differentiate if when we go, every black man that's outside? How do you differentiate this person is Ghanaian? How do you differentiate his Angolan? How do you differentiate his Nigerian? Because at some point, every black person will look the same. And it is from our nature. When a Nigerian steps into the room, you will know that a Nigerian has stepped into the room. Our consciousness. You know, we have a way because, and a friend told me once that it's because how many, they're about 100 million, I said 150 million people, and they have to struggle for something. So that changes of such an individual. He has gone through so much stress in life. So when he sees something that is easily his own, that consciousness is still in him that I still have to struggle to get this thing. So he hasn't left that, you know, that trauma has not left him. He still believes that I have to struggle. And I think subtly, it makes us strive. Outside, you can outside and also within. Because almost every Nigerian that is outside, you still see them. There is this longing for home. My friend abroad told me that we are only here as visitors. Home is still where we are. And that's why you notice every December, airport is always full. Or Easter. If you can't come during December, the person is coming during December. So coming during Easter. So a Nigerian is an African, let me use that word, a black man, that has been transformed due to years of history and trauma that have now made themselves identical in a particular way. And that our trauma makes us different from the Angolan, makes us different from the Ghanaian, makes us different from the Congolese. And for some people it makes them, for some people, it marks them. That's Nigerian. SPEAKER_05: Ninga, what do you have to say? What's your thought on this? Who is a Nigerian or what does it mean to be a Nigerian? SPEAKER_02: Well, being a Nigerian, well, apart from the fact that somebody by virtue of geography, you are born into uh the territory where Nigeria has currently. That's a part. What when you really talk about who is a Nigerian, I would just say it simply, a Nigerian is someone that uh carries a spirit and and it's a unique spirit, and like you hear of the Nigerian spirit, I I would say it's a special spirit, you know, of uh ability to to how do I put it, in spite of whatever is happening, ability to thrive. So let me just put a Nigerian is someone that carries a special spirit to thrive anywhere in the world. So that's it, it's a Nigerian. SPEAKER_05: Now I'm going to write on what you have said, but I'm going to put it this way. Whenever you encounter an American, the question, or rather the ethos you're going to see is that we have been, would I use the word, authorized by the heavens to lead. The Americans always put off that spirit. They believe they are stewards, stewards of change on earth, stewards of governance, stewards of entrepreneurship, whatever. So you see, wherever they go. So the way I see that question, that I think a lot of us have not been looking at is Nigerian or Nigerians or Nigeria is a steward who should carry the fire of Africa to the world. Because you call geography, irrespective of the geography. Are you a Nigerian? Yes, you know that word. I'm a Nigerian to my bones. So there's a fire you carry. And not only we see that, that's why if you go to America, you see two brothers ruling two different states from the same family, the Bushes. Jeb was governor of California, I think, at the time. His brother, who eventually became the president. George, was uh Texas. So you might imagine that. So they see themselves. We are stewards of America. So wherever we go, that is it for us. And that's how I want to see it. Now there's something I'm gonna ask to be this question. The Japan syndrome. There's a lot of things happening, people are leaving. SPEAKER_07: If you have the opportunity to leave, will you? No. Why? SPEAKER_01: I I my my thing has always been not feeling like a second-class citizen where I am. I'm Nigerian. Right. Anywhere you go, okay, recently I traveled and I looked around. I was one of the few black people where I was. That feeling of that connection, I couldn't, I couldn't imagine. I can visit. If I want to go to school, I can go to school. But staying there for an extended period of time, indefinitely, I I can't I can't stay here. I can't, I can't do it. I I've never I've never been a huge proponent of Jakbar. My parents look at me like I'm crazy sometimes, but I'm like, I can't, I I can't imagine it because this is home for me. And you see, a lot of Nigerians, I know personally, people that are in their 60s, they've retired from their practices abroad, and they're building houses here and they're coming back. There's an understanding that there's something, there's a type of connection that you cannot have with that place. And unfortunately, those people are very quick to remind you that you have no business here. You don't belong here. You do what you need to do and go back to where you came from. They say it often. And we get offended when we hear things like that. But I think it should be a wake-up call that you are responsible for building your home. Imagine if I build a house and I just say, okay, the furniture will figure itself out. I'm going to rent a hotel room for the next two years. You're going to come back to that house and it's going to be worse than how you left it. Because you did nothing to maintain that house. You did nothing to build it. And you're surprised that lizards live in your living room. Yes, they do. Because you're not putting in the time and effort. And it ties back to that sense of patriotism, nationhood, and civic responsibility. This is our home, guys. Like there's nothing that anybody else wants to give us outside that we cannot get here even better. They know that. And that's why some things are in place to not allow us progress as we should. But once Nigerians are able to realize that this is home, I feel like that's when we can start moving forward. So, me personally, I am not a Jakbar enthusiast. Let me know before people say, ah, she wants to do her master's, yes, yes, I have to do my master's, but I'm coming back. That's me. Can I? SPEAKER_05: There is a generation in Nigeria that is missing. There's a huge generation, statistically speaking, you know, when you go to open source, you see, like I was looking back at my secondary school, and uh when I left school till date, my class, the population, 80% annoying NGO. Because I know somehow we keep track of ourselves. So I use that as a base and extrapolate it and check others, and it's like it's a recurring decimal. So we are now at a place we are having, or we're about to see, a lost generation. How do we speak to that? SPEAKER_06: First, I would say that there are two things. Um, first is there are people who believe that help people always believe that abroad is better. They believe that out one outside is better until you get there and discover that it's really not the um situation. One other thing you would also begin to notice very soon is that most of your classmates who have traveled uh will either come back to Nigeria alive or their bodies will be brought back to Nigeria. But definitely they are going to find their way back to the country. So for me, uh there's a question of geography and population. If everybody who was Nigerian stayed in Nigeria, we would not survive. That's the truth. We would not, I mean, that's the way I choose to live. The only way you see the Chinese now moving is a population problem. And our resources, even though we want to believe are enough for our population, in the management of the resources, is not enough. For instance, imagine giving birth to all your children, and for 30 years they go nowhere. That your house from nursery to primary to secondary, nobody in house, no, they are in your house, no school, nothing, nothing to implode. So I I want to always want to view it from that perspective that people got to move. People need to move. Migration is part of life. Exactly. People need to move. So let me let me the point, sorry. The the the the the second point I was going to is that, you know, even though you leave your village, your village goes with you. Okay. Most of the times. Yeah. Now, when people leave, it's not a problem. What are you leaving for? SPEAKER_08: Okay. SPEAKER_06: Do you go there and then begin to destroy the image of Nigeria? Do you go there and then begin to talk down or down on people who are here? You are there to do your thing and you're going to come back. SPEAKER_05: Building this home that we all still come back to. So you just brought a balance to it because when you call Chinese, and there's there's a theory, you know, the Chinese propagate, I think it's called the Thousand Sands, you know, in trying to build because of their population. Like you said, they have a lot of Chinese out there. But the idea is they go out there and they bring ideas back home to build the Chinese mindset in business, in economics, in what do you call automobile and engineering and all of that. But I love the balance you brought to it. But this is where I'm going. Because a good number of us who live live with the mindset of I'm gone for good. But forgetting that where you're going was built by people. SPEAKER_06: And that's the point I was trying to make, sir, that at some point the place you are, they'll remind you that you're a visitor. Thank you. They'll remind you they're a visitor. And then the thing is how, as young kids, when we're leaving, I went to a boarding school. But I think we're leaving uh secondary school. We all, you know, sang this song, I will never come back here, blah, blah, blah. But here we are now organizing reunions planning to go back, you know, always looking for opportunities to go back, give back, and all of that. So it's a thing of, and then there is this aspect of it that told someone, one of my friends who left, I told him that if not for peer pressure, he won't leave. Because it's a thing with my own generation that once they cross the borders of this country, they begin to snap very fine pictures. And you think it's just all about pictures. By the time they tell you what they go through there. So I myself, I took, I've always prayed to God to give me the resources so that I can go for vacation, travel, and come back. As someone asks, our president has gone on uh his annual leave, and someone asks how many foreign presidents come to Nigeria for annual leave. That's something we also want to. That's a discussion for another thing. But the issue is look, we really need to love this country. We don't love this nation. People, a lot of Nigerians, and it starts from see, we send our kids to schools, we don't check what is being taught. How many parents attend Parents Teachers Association meeting? SPEAKER_05: I'm the chairman of my. SPEAKER_02: To go for holiday, very fine, but not to just permanently make that my abode. You know, where I have arable land resources, I can set up, you know, facilities, companies, I can build estates, create the environment over there, even right here. Very possible. So that's my thought on that. SPEAKER_05: Great. It leads me to the next question, which I want Olamede to come in. You know, we always use this word in our country, in our local parlance. SPEAKER_07: Monday, one day. But I've come to realize that things don't just happen. People make it happen, and evil prevails when good men do nothing. SPEAKER_05: What should we do? What should we? We now referring to what he said about Christians the church in this regard. SPEAKER_04: Ah, I said charity begins at work, and she's been drawing one singular point on you don't need to look too far. Within your environment, what are you doing? When I used to live in uh six uh is it six unit flats, we are the ones, we are now our local government chairman and everything. And I've noticed it's a theory, anybody can test it anyway. There will be two people out of ten that will be the drivers of change. And there will be a three, what's it called? No, I'll say 30% that will always drag everybody behind. They'll only drag everybody behind. And when good things start coming, you see those three, they want to be the ones to lead. So for those two, this is where leadership skills come in. You need to find a way, right? To manage the three, just manage them while dragging the others with you to buy into your program. So you always need to be self is like a selfless leader. So that eventually, what do you do? And you shouldn't come with the mindset of saying, okay, I want to finish everything. No. Do your bit. And what? Leave it for the next one to come. I take a cue from this from Lagos State government. My father told me there's what they call the blueprint, Lagos State's blueprints. That you, no matter the type of governor that comes, you don't need to come and formulate new ideas. There's already a master plan, yes, Lagos Master Plan. Come there, just come and implement. So a lot of things they are seeing, the blue rail, the green rail, it's not as if the new person there came. It was already in the plan. So you just need leaders just to come in, do the much you can do, and just be rest assured that there will be another generation that will come and pick up from you. After Moses, there's a Joshua. After Moses, there is a Joshua. So you said to the church, with religious institutions, do the most you can do of the reorientation of people. Because that's what religious institutions are mostly supposed to do. Reorientate the minds of people. Let them believe. Let them hope. A man that does not have hope, he will come out in the streets, carry a, he would have drunk paraga, and carry it, buy use money to buy a K-47 and just stay there and shoot. But Nigerians are very hopeful people. They believe that what tomorrow it goes better. So that's why, and I give thumbs up to our digital institutions, they are doing a good job. What's it called? They are carrying even bodies that what's it called, the government is not carrying. You know, my pastor sits down, he will he's the counselor, he's marriage counselor, he's a finance counselor. He does so much. He's trauma counselor. He's trauma counselor, he does so much. So what he just what we need to be doing is continue the work of orientation. You know, so that eventually we are building leaders that will do their bit. And once they are done, another new generation will come and take over. And the Nigeria that we are longing to see, we will see it in our own time. I believe that I'm already seeing it. That's my own stability. I'm happy that in this place here, everybody is. We are very hopeful people. We are very hopeful people. SPEAKER_06: I mean, beyond the beyond having to teach, continue teaching values, orient people, orient people, the church has to get involved. SPEAKER_08: Yes. SPEAKER_06: The church has to get involved. The Martin Luther Kings was a pastor. But he was a social crusader. He was a politician. The church needs to get involved. Are we raising, we are complaining, oh, we don't have people in the systems. Are we raising people who are able to take the systems? Or are we raising people who can only pray in tongues? And when you give them opportunity, they do worse than the people who are there. We need to begin to look at what is our leadership training structure. What model of future leaders do we want to bring about? What kind of industry leaders do we want to see? If you look at the guys at tech in Nigeria and Africa today, they were all workers of the same employer previously. They were all in the same place. Talk about flotta wave, uh, flutter wave, talk about Adela. It's the same, they were in the same place. So there must be a stream that they drank from. SPEAKER_08: Yeah. SPEAKER_06: So what stream are we giving to our young people that they are drinking from? Generally, I was speaking with somebody and I said, okay, we're talking, okay, I was talking to uh Christian Lawyers Fellowship, and then we're speaking to uh uh uh legislative monitoring. And I said to them, when people are elected senators, house of reps, house of assembly members, they are almost always looking for who would serve as a legislative aid. And we have people who are Christians, who are administrators in these uh assemblies, and they always refer to them. But the question is: do we have people who we can boldly say and be legislative aid to this person? And we can be sure that when he gets there, he's representing Christ. When Mordecaiah said to Esther, it may be for such a time as this, it's because he had already impacted in Esther. And he knows what Esther is doing. If Esther was a non-entity, he wouldn't say that to her. Before Joseph was asked, so most of us we can interpret the dreams, we can prophesy, but when it now comes to the managerial aspect of it, we are lost. How many pastors have fallen out of faith simply by being asked to lead Khan or PFL? You don't see them again. We're talking just I mean, some of our leaders are even ushers in churches. SPEAKER_00: Let's not go there. SPEAKER_06: But yeah, so so the point for me is involved beyond just teaching what is, you know, going very fantastic job. SPEAKER_00: Yeah. SPEAKER_06: Orientation and all of that. Very fantastic job. But the church needs to present itself, present leaders who will stand the test of time and who people will believe, not because vote for, not because they are Christians or because they are believers, but because we can point to this person's integrity. SPEAKER_04: He said something good about integrity. Uh I remember checking this scripture, I can't remember. Yes, the deacons, seven deacons. And they said, let us find people. The first thing they needed was not was integrity, full of good reports, full of good reports. So that was what we that was the what was needed to share food, though. Yes, to share, yes, to share food. What's it called? SPEAKER_06: They needed men filled with the spirit, it's filled with integrity, full of good reports. So perception is important, even for sharing food, not to talk about sharing resources. SPEAKER_05: You say to share food as if it's food is a new problem. SPEAKER_04: You know, but I would I would I would say one thing. I have the church is already doing what he's asking. I um there is this particular Day Star, they're known to have a leadership program. Very solid program that even people from other places. Pastor Sam and go to it. I noticed by our Sunday school, now at Redeem, things we are talking about are not things 10 years before we talk about. They are sometimes I even wonder that how management class oriented than spiritual oriented, because now we start talking about things that they ought to teach us, you know, in the circular world. Now we are talking about it. And good enough. Now, before growing up as a young teenager, I used to always look forward to say, oh, will I see Christians like this, you know, this place occupy positions. But now I've seen so many. Cosmos Maduka, I love that man. Very bold businessman. He tells you, he breaks the world down to you this way, and how he applies it in his business. Lekker all that to me is like a genius of beyond our time. He's a brand expert. Yes, he's a brand expert. He understands the voice of the universe. Yes. So now we now have a lot of people taking up these spaces. But the space we want more to take up is in the governance space. Politics. It's in politics. And permit me to say, when you I always roll with this rule that when you point a finger, three are pointing back at you. My friends call me Senator Tugar as a joking name. But I don't have uh, I've not registered with any political party. You can form one. I have not registered with any political party. No, I'm not supposed to form one. I was already joking. unknown: Okay. SPEAKER_04: What's the code? So all of us here, if I ask you, let me even ask you. I think it's just my non charming meme not being nonchalant. It's a courage. And that's the thing. SPEAKER_06: That is what I say the church should do. Yes, the church should get you to join a political party. SPEAKER_05: All right, guys. SPEAKER_06: And get you to pass. SPEAKER_05: The conversation has taken that dimension that I know that whenever we get there, everybody points to the church for a reason. The reason is because we are the light of the world and we are the salt of the earth. The answer lies with us. It lies with us. But again, now we need to summon that courage. For light to shine, there must be darkness. For there to be salt, it means there's something that needs to be preserved or sweetened. So, in itself, it is nothing. But in the face of challenge or challenges, you come to appreciate its value. And I think that's where we need to rise up as people. Courage is needed. Change, for change to take place, you must have courage to implement it. It will either go this way or that way. But listen, if you don't do anything, it surely will go the way you don't like it. So let it be that, like the leopard said, if we stay here, we die. If we go there, we die. But we'll die with food in our mouth. Which is better? Dying hungry or dying few. You know. So guys, we've been talking about our nation, Nigeria. Somebody said the the discussion of Nigeria, if we start, we will never get to the end. But do we stop talking about our country? Never. This is this is what all we have, like to be said. There's no place like home. If you like go to the West, US, whatever, there's no place like home. And this episode of the show is to encourage every Nigerian out there, be it in country, out country, diaspora, whatever, listen. You are a steward. That's how I see, if they ask me who is a Nigerian, a steward that carries the fire of Africa. And if we lose it as a people, maybe Africa may never find her feet again. So I'm going to take last words from my discussions. I'll start with Genga. SPEAKER_02: Well, it's been a good time to deliberate issues affecting our nation. But primarily, uh, I want to just say that we should not stop praying for our nation. Why? Because it was highly recommended in the book of Timothy. First of all, prayer supplication should be made for all men, for those who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life. So we should not, if we love Nigeria, we should not stop praying for Nigeria. I believe there is Nigeria is you know it's uh critical for there have been several uh prophetic words about Nigeria, you know, and it's it's in a critical part in the whole map of Africa, and it's supposed to uh send, you know, just like my brother said, you know, to bring that fire, you know, or bring such a revival all through the whole of Africa and the world at large. So we should not stop praying for Nigeria. And uh one more thing I just want to also say is that we should uh be part of anything that has to do with leadership development, because that's what when we have more leaders, we can bring about change. When you have people of like mind and who place priority on leadership, you know, when the church is engaged in leadership development, then we can be sure that we are set for changes in the nearest future. SPEAKER_07: Okay, I say uh do practice what you preach um in your small scope, in your small environment. SPEAKER_04: Be patrotic enough to make a change where you are. That ripple, as you make that change, other people will see, and you may just be shocked. People are always watching and they're always recommending. Uh, they said, okay, let us find a man that can play this flute very well. It's because what someone was somewhere and was doing it excellently. SPEAKER_08: Excellently. SPEAKER_04: So wherever we are, whether you are in the kitchen, whether you are on the road, whether you are a teacher, do that thing excellently well. So that eventually we can build the leaders that will change this country one day at a time. Thank you. Toby. SPEAKER_01: Um, I think what I'll have to say is, like I said earlier, I believe in this country. I believe this country can work. I will encourage Nigerians to love this country enough to do the hard work. Um, love and take ownership of this country. It's not an abstract thing. This is us. And we can't have a functioning home if we don't build it. We are a dysfunctional family right now, but with the adequate work, I believe that Nigeria can be greater than even the times that people reference. Oh, it was great back then. I believe we can be greater than that. So I just, you know, encourage Nigerians, this as Nigeria is about to turn a new age, we should, you know, just take time to reflect and think about what we can do to make this country better for to the Genesis for our own children. Essentially. SPEAKER_06: All right, I would say that we should speak more positives about Nigeria. There's a time where we had a minister for information that made Nigerians almost confess on a daily basis good people, great nation. That's Professor Jenjar. No, that was uh Dora. Doraku. Yes. Um that reduced the um negative words that we that we are speaking and the atmosphere, uh, nature receives what is spoken to it. True. So if we believe in Nigeria, even in our conversations, yeah. Um, someone said you saw the way I'm I'm always passionately shouting, God bless Nigeria after the national lantern. And I say yes, because there's a lot of negative words. If you have a child and you'll be speaking negativity over that child, and the child is hearing you. Over time, the child, you know what? He doesn't care. He just runs on autopilot. That's true. Let's keep on uh projecting Nigeria in a good light. I'm proud to be in Nigeria. SPEAKER_05: We are a good people and we are a great We are a good people and we are a great nation. So I remember a statement somebody, you know, made. At the time I had this opportunity to do some things outside the country and walked up to me and Nigerian to my bones. Nigerians are the only people I know, maybe I stand to be corrected, who never claims any other nationality anywhere. That's the truth from my experience. Anywhere you see us, we say, I'm a Nigerian. SPEAKER_06: Even those who are citizens. Yes, they say that. I'm a Nigerian and also. And also, exactly. SPEAKER_05: So the guy looked at me and was like, wow. I said, yes. I mean Nigerian, we're a unique set of people. And I have this mindset. I say it when I have the opportunity to say it. The earth would be boring without Nigerians. For your information. We are unique people. We solve problems, we see and do what people run away from. But we need to bring it back home. Engineer it. We are a good people, a great nation. Before I let my guests go, I have, yes, a gift for them. For everyone who comes into the World Cafe podcast space. We always do this. We have our true pillows for you to remember us by. Thank you. SPEAKER_01: Thank you. Let me post it up. SPEAKER_05: Yes, please. Thank you. Thank you. So gift is a token from us. Thank you. Just to let you know that we care and say thank you for raising uh this space, coming in to share this moment with us. It means a lot. So, guys, you know how we say it on the show. This is the space where we come in to lean on one another's experience and forge a positive path. We are available on all the social media platforms. We are there on LinkedIn, TikTok, Instagram, and we also had a YouTube channel. X also, we have a YouTube channel. Have you subscribed? Go ahead, subscribe, hit that notification button so that when episodes like this drop, you'll be the first to know. Ah, till I come your way again. You know how I say it on the show. My name is Amakri. Amakri is away. Bye for now. Guys, thank you.