S3 Ep. 198 Unlocking Nigeria's Potential: Empowering Youth and Building Robust Institutions

Speaker 1: Hello there, welcome to the World Cafe podcast. This podcast has been designed with created content that centers on the power of words. Can we really do anything without speaking? Can we really do anything without the agency of words? Yes, that is what this podcast is all about, and I am your host , amakri Isuboye, your neighborhood word trader. I believe in the power of words , for it is the unit of creation . I trade in words to profit my world. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good, everything. Wherever you are at this particular moment listening to me At this particular moment, listening to me, yes, on the Word Cafe live show, I will always ask that question how are you? What's up with you? I understand a lot has been going on on the surface of the earth. Beth, you know what you have life. You are alive. You should be hopeful. Where I am, at the capital, yes, as in Nigeria. At the capital, yes, of the fed , as in nigeria, the federal capital territory, abuja for a couple of days we've been having rains, rains, rains, but now somehow we're back and the weather is somewhat humid, you know. So we have this heat and all of that, you know. So that's it. From where I am, I'm excited, excited. You're wondering why. I'll tell you because I have someone I consider special on the show. I've been following this individual for close to seven years now, if I want to put it on that scale. I mean, he describes the way he describes himself fascinates me , you know and a professor, an inventor and an entrepreneur. Yes, you heard me right, professor Ndubusi Ekeke. It's amazing. I will bring him on. I know you want to see his face , like I want to also. He's an amazing personality. Where is he? Where is he? And there he is, hi. Speaker 3: Prof. Hello, Greetings everyone. Thank you so much for having me in the show. Speaker 1: thank you appreciate this thank you for accepting to do this. I remember the first time I came across your thoughts on linkedin and it had to do with, um, uh, something on cryptocurrency and all of that, and I was really fascinated. I was like I need to read more about this individual, which I went on to do, you know. But before I do anything, I meet me, I have one or two things to share with my audience about you, and I will pick it up just a little. Just a little. Permit me to do that. You know, guys, I'm going to him, I'm going to read one or two things about him. I love his simplicity. I must tell you the truth. I love that. You know he is this let me keep it there Professor Ndubile Kekwe . He described himself, you know, like I said, an inventor. He's a professor and an entrepreneur. He invented and patented a robotic system which the United States government acquired as a signee right. You know he holds these two doctoral and four master's degrees, including a PhD in engineering, from Johns Hopkins University, united States. He earned an undergraduate degree from FUTO that's FUTO for those of us who know that. In Nigeria he graduated as his class best student, while in Analog Devices Corporation he co-designed an accelerometer for the iPhone. You heard that? A recipient of IGI Global Book of the Year Award, a head fellowGI Global Book of the Year Award, a TED Fellow, ibm Global Entrepreneur and a World Economic Forum Young Global Leader Prof, as we fondly call him has held professorships in Carnegie Mellon University, bangkok University and served in the United States National Science Foundation Committee. The South African press called him a doctor of innovation for helping organizations on the mechanics of business innovation strategy and growth. The Fast Pickle Group, which controls many startups and entities, has been writing in the Harvard Business Review. He was recognized by the Guardian as one of 60 Nigerians making Nigerians I mean lives matter on Nigerians' 60th Independence Day. Guys, that's it. Professor Ndubisi Akepo, you're welcome Today. I'm going to be coursing with him. You read, I mean you heard all of this. Like I told you, I love his simplicity. For him, less is more. I mean, if you follow him on LinkedIn which I think you should his write-ups are not just thought provoking, he makes you see things differently. So today I have him on the show and we're going to be talking about equipping young nigerians with what it takes to lead the future. Prof, what it's like from where you stand. Just let's hear you first. How are you, what's the weather like and everything where you are? Speaker 3: It's coming out. Fine, here it's the same old America. Nothing has changed. We of course we continue to pay the taxes, nothing more. But, it's a nation of aspiration. We have dreams do come true, and I will say the weather is looking good and we are so excited for what the promises of tomorrow are. Thank you All right. Speaker 1: Thank you Before we shift to. Speaker 3: Nigeria. What is it like from? I mean yeah politically. Speaker 1: Yes politically From yeah politically Trump and his yes politically. Speaker 3: Trump and you know that possibly most of you are listening as fans of Trump Because statistically there are more Nigerians supporting Trump than Kamala Harris and we are not going to go there because we'll lose a lot of people in the conversation. We are not going to go there because we'll lose a lot of people in the conversation, but one thing I do know whether it's Harris or whether it's Trump. nothing will change. America has institutions, and those institutions are agnostic of human elements. So the cosmetics is all about. Trump can say it this way, harris will do it this way, but at the end of the day, they are going to execute the American playbook, and that American playbook moves in seasons out of seasons. It's going to be the same thing, whether it is Trump, whether it's Romney, whether it's Obama, whether it's Bush or whether it's Harris. So that is what we have come to know the nation, because it is not about individual, even though the individuals have their different styles but at the end of the day, it's still the same thing. So let me give you a very good data here when Trump was the president and when Obama was the president, if you look at the first four years of Trump sorry, the first four years of Obama compared to the four years that Trump spent, Obama actually sent many people out of America that Trump possibly did. He deported a lot of people. Then, if you look at who is actually fighting China on trade , Biden is actually causing more damage to China than Trump. If you look at the days of Trump, you may think, hey, he was even more effective. Now you look at who has added more digits to the national debt the Congressional Budget Office . Actually, they are. Trump added more digits to the national debt than Biden. So what I'm trying to say here is all about style, Because at the end of the day, whether it's Republican or whether it's Democrat, they are just working to execute the American dream, and that is what it takes this time. So sometimes you could be ambivalent. Whether you vote for Harris, whether you vote for Trump, nothing will change. It's still going to be the same country to a larger state. So it's coming out fine, we're fine, thank you beautiful guys. Speaker 1: I forgot to mention to you that he is the faculty at Takeda Institute. For those of you who read his works, you know go check it out. You know I follow it. You know, go through it, and all of it Amazing. Now we switch gear to the conversation, equipping young Nigerians with what it takes to lead the future. Do you think we are ready to lead the future? I'm talking about young Nigerians from where you stand. Speaker 3: Of course, there are extremely brilliant young people in Nigeria and in many, many domains they are ready and they have the capacity to actually lead. But there are different dimensions of leadership. There is the technical leadership, there is the political leadership, there is the religious leadership. There is all domains of leadership. So the question is not really equipping your Nigerians to lead Nigerians to lead. The real deal here is building an institutional environment that will actually make Nigeria leadable. Speaker 1: Take that again. I want to take that again. Speaker 3: Essentially looking at having an institutional environment that will actually make a nation to be leadable. We most times over-emphasize and environment that will actually make a nation to be leadable. You know, we most times over emphasize on the capacity of that special Messiah or that special individual or a generation of young people that will just come and the nation will be transformed. There is really nothing like that. If you look at 2, 2000 years of GDP's nations, you see that humans are very critical. But the most important element may actually be who can actually make institutions to begin to emerge in a country? If I show you the GDP of United States, united Kingdom, western Europe, china, maybe, over 2,000 years, you will notice one thing Most of those GDPs were flat, they were not growing over centuries. After a period of time, they started growing. What happened? What happened was it could be property rights. A group of people came together and said hey, listen, we are going to have a regulatory system that will make it possible that if I invent an idea, I can have a little bit of exclusivity to make money from that idea. Yeah, to protect me from my neighbor who would just like to rip me off, thereby creating a disincentive for me to go and look for the next idea. When America did that when Samuel Hopkins was given the first patent in late 1890s. The economy of the United States pushed up. When China also started recognizing market system and the rule of law within the Chinese way, they also started taking things up. So if you look at equipping the young people of Nigeria to lead , one of the greatest ways you can actually prepare them is for those who are in power today to begin to set up those critical institutions, because it is upon those institutions that young people can actually have an opportunity to drive. So a legal system will have to get a little better and those protections from the market system have to be. But it's not a question of you are going to leave those things untouched and then you think you can get 1,000 young people that will magically transform Nigeria. Of course those 1,000 young people have to do those conditions precedent. They have to do those things. But if they don't do those things in their generation, many bad things will happen. The biggest mistake our forefathers did, talking about the forefathers of Nigeria, they did not socialize a system where rule of law, let me say, became the foundation upon which the Nigerian nation was built. If you live in Abuja, you come to United States, nobody will tell you to stop urinating in the open area Because if the police sees you he gives you a ticket. There are so many habits you carry in Nigeria. When you come to America you drop those habits Because you know there are consequences for those things. But the same person who might have lived in. America for 15 years. He goes back to Nigeria. He says I am free, I can do whatever I want to do here because there are no consequences. That process is actually what? When you're talking about preparing young people for leadership, it's like they are not ready. They are ready. The challenge is the environment they have to lead. How ready are you preparing that environment for that leadership capability they have to manifest? If that environment is not fertile, no matter what they plant on that environment, it will not do well. So send them to Harvard, send them to Johns Hopkins, send them to Oxford, send them to the best possible leadership program in the world. Put them into a system that doesn't exist. They will fail. They will fail't exist. They will fail. They will fail in business, they will fail in political system. They fail in so many things. But if you pick them from Ebony State University, pick them from ABU Zaria, pick them from FUTO, anywhere, put them in an environment that exists, with order, you will know that those young people you are saying they have to be prepared to lead, they are already prepared. So they come to. America, they thrive. They go to United Kingdom. They thrive because the system is now leadable and that means things can work. So I flip it the other way around. You cannot tell me that this young girl, she was just nobody in the city of Oumuamua. Nobody really cared about her because she's a young lady. But all of a sudden she got a scholarship to come to the United States to study in Princeton and then she became a thought leader that the whole world would like to listen. Are you telling me she was not already a leader when she was in Nigeria? She was a leader, it's just that the environment was not ready for her. So if we focus on improving our environment in Africa, we will actually accomplish more than waiting for that Messiah who is so magical that he can just come and produce whatever that is a problem in the country. Speaker 1: If I hear you, sorry, go on, go on, finish your talk. Speaker 3: No, no, no. That is a perspective and the way I see it about preparing young people for leadership. We need to prepare them but, most importantly, the environment they need to come and participate in that leadership process must necessarily be redesigned and reformed so that they can actually have a means to lead. Thank you. Speaker 1: Now, what you have said is so lead, thank you. Now, what you have said is so profound. Honestly, it is so, so profound . But the question has always been how? Because everything you've laid before us today you know within this space. I don't think it's anything new , because you are a Nigerian. You didn't grow up as in, you didn't school in the US from your primary, your secondary and all that you schooled here, at least for those of us who follow you and all that Futo is just. If you're living in Port Harket , it's about plus or minus an hour 30 minutes drive. You get to O'Reilly and all of that. But you are in the US excelling because of the system. So the question is how do we build the system? Speaker 3: yeah, that's a very great question and I like to refer myself as the babies, because some of us are visible, not because that we are special or that we have accomplished anything of great value. Some of the most accomplished Nigerians and Africans are on full-time employment where they can't even talk about themselves and we don't know about it. So we have one of our seniors in FUTO, Fragene Kingsley. He's the you know this unmanned aerial vehicle in Lockheed Martin Some of the most classified US military technologies. This guy is the director of that program. We have guys in NASA, Because of secret service classification, they can't just talk, they are not available. Most of the time they don't even have a social media presence because they can't write things. Some of us are a little lucky that we are freer to have a social public presence. People are just seeing a little part of what is happening because the best among the community nobody most times. So it's something that is as simple as everything. Nigeria prepares you very well. I mean, I know that things are not perfect, but the fact is this when you get into a PhD program in United States, you know we all studied Nigeria. I called when I started at Johns Hopkins University. The first homework they did in one of the courses we took was to build a mathematical model and program a system for minimally invasive surgery of the throat. So basically, how do you use robots to operate on humans in minimally invasive surgery? I have not been exposed to the software called Python. It's the kind of computer programming language where I solve the mathematics, the calculus. So when I finished it I had to travel to Scotland before the final day of their class. So I asked my colleague please, I've solved the mathematics for this, please do the coding, you know. So he went to the professor and told him hey, andy left the coding for me. And then when I came back from Scotland, the professor summoned us us. I said what happened? And they said I did the math, but I have no use Python. Nobody has ever given me the opportunity, so I'm learning it every night. But the time we needed to submit this homework and the little time I could learn it, which was so, I said, since he knew python, let him just go and code it. Professor said, rostello said so you did the math. Yes, yes, so that's the phd, that's the, that's the most important thing. The coding can be given to anybody to do. They might not give right there . He gave me a scholarship to his lab. Wow. You know I said if you're able to solve this math, please can you come and join my lab. So my point is there was no other mathematics I did in America. It was the one I learned from Futo. Speaker 1: I can imagine. Speaker 3: The difference here now is there is now a system where somebody, let's say, identified a little talent and then they can now take you from where you are and prepare you. There are a lot of talented young people in Nigeria. Our challenge is that system. And then the question you ask how can we improve that system? Yeah, I have never seen any nation that can boast that it can thrive without marriage. There are three things that would define a nation Honest leadership Okay, you need to have people who are honest, because honest leadership will make, and force them to make, the best decision on behalf of the country, or on behalf of the company, or on behalf of any environment they are leading or have an influence. Honesty you need that in a system. The second one is pragmatism. Pragmatism is removing the lethargy of who is right or who is wrong. Rather, focus on what is it that is working. If you are pragmatic in that leadership system, in a company, in a country, in a state, you are going to build those institutions that will actually deliver value. But if you are tethered on the liturgy of I'm scoring a point because it's my idea, it's going to be implemented, whether it's the right idea or not, whether it's effective or not, you are going to have difficulties. So pragmatism isolates a nation from paralysis, because focusing on what is it that works. So I'll give an example. When Nigeria changed government in 2015, a new president came and he largely retained the same leadership in the Central Bank of Nigeria. Check two, three years behind 2015. Yeah. Those guys managed Nigeria's dollar Naira rates 40 days. Yeah, they did. Naira was so stable that people could actually use their Naira to buy things in New York Naira debit card to buy things in New York. Naira was so stable that you could shop on Amazon from Nigeria and you pay with your Naira because there was no issue of FX Wahala Naira going up, dollar going down, all those things. Speaker 1: Yeah, the somersaults . Speaker 3: Now, volatility was cut out, there was a kind of solid order. But a new government came order . But a new government came. Instead of looking at that pragmatic leadership of what was working, it was now a time of I don't care whether I'm working, it wasn't my idea. And now a new idea, using the same group of people under God, the same people that stabilized and kept Naira largely stable for nearly five years, now started destroying the same Naira. Jonathan was 197 Naira per dollar. That's what he left it. Yeah, 197 Naira per dollar, that's where he left it. Yeah, yeah. Within the time he there, he grew maximum of 127 to 197. Maximum, at least, wasn't up to a delta of 80 over five years. Yeah. But now from there, this guy now moving for 195 up to the 430 and so on. So my point was they were not pursuing that pragmatic leadership which was if the other person's idea was the best , let's go with it. Let's go with it, and then you also look at what happened in 2023. A new government came. The issue was not what was working, what was not working, rather the issue here. This is what I think is my idea , and when nations are tethered on the ideas instead of looking at it from fair, black and white efficiency capability, you run into difficulties. The president last year did not even read a report of his economic advisors, because there were none. There was no new minister. There was no new, maybe central bank of Nigeria governor. There was no new economic thing that has been formed. But then, out of political liturgy, he floated in air. Out of another political liturgy, he removed the first subsidy, but he has not gotten any economic advice from his team to have the capacity to make a pragmatic decision that has consequential impacts in the nation. So when those decisions were made, we are now looking at the framework of this is what I want to do, and not necessarily what are the data systems that will support that? So for you to have a system that will work, for young people to move into the position of leadership, to thrive, you have to run away from such constructs because they actually destroy the system. Now the third one you need to have merit. No nation can advance than this ability to make the pursuit of opportunity among and between young people to be evidently fair, open, transparent for everyone. If you lose merit, you lose young people, and sometimes there's always this imagination that if you allow merit, somebody is going to keep winning, another person will just keep losing. That is not true. True. What? The fact is this if you allow merit to work, you will just see that comparative advantages will begin to show up. True. Let's assume you've written an exam to go to medicine, apply for medicine and you never really liked biology. But your dad wanted you to start medicine Somehow because you have connections. You admitted into medicine. But your skill where you actually excel you excel in music and art but you've gotten a lot of help through lack of merit in the system. You got into medicine. You are selling, say, music and art, that you have gotten a lot of help through lack of merit in the system. You got it maxed out. The other guy who was really very good, could be a very good doctor, lost that opportunity. What has happened is that you've actually hurt the system to different young people, because how many doctors do you see who get medical degrees? They never even practice one day. The only benefit is that they just put doctor in front of their names. And if you check, it's not that these young people really do not want to practice they never really liked it but it's just a system where parents say you have to study medicine At the end of the day, even if they are not really ready for it, they just figure out how to walk through the school and become a doctor. My point is when a system has merit, your leadership will be filtered, and only those who are called to leadership will be filtered, and only those who are called to serve will be called. A system that does not have merit. People who are not supposed to be in a position will hold that position, and if they hold that position, they are not helping that system. Just look at what happened to Biden. The issue with Biden age is what we face every day in Africa . I mean, have you ever seen or read or watched any interview by Paul Beer in the last 10 years? Speaker 1: I don't even know what he looks like now. Speaker 3: But he is still the leader of Cameroon. Yeah. And imagine what it means. I cannot imagine any conference or any event that Paul Bia has participated in. None. And there is no system of merit, Otherwise there's no way. He'll still be the president or the leader of Cameroon, True, but you could see the American one. That is how they improved our process. I mean, I'm not saying that that merit is 100% assured, but there is always that pursuit to make sure that that merit. So in Nigeria we need to have merits and that merit also goes to having the rule of law. That rule of law ensures that people have confidence not just in the political system but also the legal system. What is the merit of this case? Am I going to win because the judge we attend the same church and because he is most likely going to come to my house tomorrow. This guy has lost Because, if you look at the books in Nigeria , there was this young man, a man, who contested for Senate position in in Nigeria. There was this young man, a man , who contested for Senate position in Northern Nigeria against a sitting Senate president. But there was also a place in Nigerian law that says you are not likely to contest two different positions at the same time. That guy ended up losing that opportunity to be a senator because another person who also ran for presidency, who did not participate in the original primary, the legal able to walk it through and did what Made him a senator. Speaker 1: They obtained the other guy and put him in the other guy. Speaker 3: And this is the point I make it every day. I say when I finished from food job, I had an automatic job as a pedagogy student in my class. But I went to my head of department I said thank you, I was not going to keep this. I really wanted to make money. So thank you, I was not going to keep this. I really wanted to make money. So thank you, I really wanted. And then Professor Ian Seokafa asked me call me a CNBC. I taught you who will teach my own children. I said our people see, there are more, smarter people, but on this one there is nothing you can say about it. So, but imagine what is going on today. You are that best student. They say oh, hello, your name is Kemi. We're looking for somebody whose name is Ekenda. Even though you are the first, we cannot give you that automatic because you are from the wrong tribe. You know what happens as you destroy and poison any element of phoenix or merit in that department and the next set of students will understand that it's not really about who is the best, it's about which tribe are you coming from? Across most of our universities , your tribe now is a competitive factor on some of those things across most of our industries, across the political system. So that means without marriage you cannot get the best work for the country, and Nigeria needs to fix that if we actually want to advance and improve by putting ourselves in a position of competitiveness. Speaker 1: Thank you guys, I forgot to mention to you guys that he's also a teacher. He's also a teacher. You can, you can see, for the last uh, 20 minutes plus, he's just been telling us the utmost truth, and I've been listening to him. I mean not interject anyway, because he's just teaching us the simple things of life that make any system or community what you whatever you want to call it work baptism, fairness and merit, and you will agree, these things are really lacking in our system, really, really lacking. Let's not lie to ourselves, let's not put our heads in the sand and behave like the ostrich . That now it will be true. That is what is very prevalent in our society, as a people here in Nigeria, and it's really really now, just to piggyback on what you said about merit, you know my second son. He just got into what we call year seven, now GS1, you know, in Nigeria, in our time we used to call it GS1, now they call it year seven and all that. He came out as the best and all that. He came out as the best, the third best graduating student. He came home because I went for the graduation and all that Myself, his mom, his siblings, a lot of we went and he was like mommy. He was talking to his mom. I came third next. He was like mommy, I find it difficult to believe, but you merited it and it was given to you. It gave him so much joy. So you mean all this work, the assignments and what have you? This is what he. He came home with about three or four awards, but the top of for him was best, third best graduating student. So imagine that I'm trying to imagine the energy within him seeing that, standing there, I'm the one, two, three, the whole school. So he's like I can do better, I can, I'll be recognized, I'll be given that. So when these things are not there in our system, like you said, it's like you've poisoned the system. Yeah, and the system is rigged, you know, and amazing, amazing. So the other day, guys, I will, I will allow him talk each time I ask him the questions. I will not interject in any way because, honestly, having him here it's an honor. You did write one or two things about the, the pure regime and all of that, your postulations, let me use that word. It was like they all came through as in. They were true, they came true. It's like they became true. I read them on LinkedIn and it's like is it that we're not listening? Our leaders are not listening, or something. It's there. I want you to say one or two things about that. Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, I don't think it's really a question of leaders not listening or a question of that we think we are smarter. No, they are smarter and they are extremely brilliant people. But I think the question there is that honesty. That's why I said honesty. Honesty is a construct that is very, very important to leadership, where you are making a decision for the best of the society and not necessarily because for yourself, yourself or any other variable. So If you are in that position and you are making that call, and if it is only, that means that person is looking at the facts To the best of his abilities, trying to make that call. Like when everyone was praising the floating of the naira, I was just among the few people who said it was going to cause massive dislocation in a jurassic economy. It wasn't because you said so any how better. What happened was? I look at basic economics in secondary school, maybe SS1, where you study demand and supply. If you have $20 hundred dollars today and then next week you float your currency and you are still having $20 hundred dollar, and then next week you float your currency and you're still having $2,100. A week before then, 1,000 people needed $100. And today 1,000 people. After you floated it, they also need $1,100. You have not shifted the equilibrium on the demand and the supply. So if you float it. My simple construct was you are now leaving that currency under the vagaries that the more demand against the little supply $1,000 against $20,000,000 against 20, to keep pushing that currency to a very new high. It's not a question that you really need to think of. Overthink it, because what is going on here? Everyone can say Naira was 450, 500 per dollar, sure, but if you think by floating it, then magically you're going to. So I don't think it's very difficult to understand because it's just a question of you don't have a lot of this dollar and you are uh still having more people needing the dollar. The price of has to shift. And then on the part of supply of energy system in the country, I believe that a nation has to subsidize something. If you go to Europe, most of their basic secondary and primary school educational systems are all free, and even the university, most of their basic, secondary and primary school educational systems are all free. And even the university must go to places like Norway, Sweden, Nordic Norwich region. They all go to universities free. That is subsidy. Yes, it is. But if you now think that you have to run a market system even more powerful than Americans, you're going to run into difficulties. So I felt that energy in Nigeria needs to be subsidized. You cannot take out that. So the issue here is not that subsidy is bad. The problem is a corruption within. A subsidy, the selling of Naira and people are tripping Naira and dollar and all those things. It's not that it's bad. The problem is that Nigeria has a corruption component which makes subsidy to look bad. It also makes not floating the currency to look bad. If you go to Saudi Arabia, your currency is paid to the dollar. If you go to China, every major emerging market to a large extent, has somehow a paged currency to the dollar. They don't want to float it because they understand the challenges and they do what we have been doing. The problem is that we have a lot of corruption in our own. So if you focus on saying, hey, bank, if through you we found out that somebody ran a cryptocurrency, you will lose your license, what will happen? The banks will now try to understand how you are making money and where that money is going. There is no consequence. Consequence you are now denying people the real opportunity because you are trying to solve a problem that another way you could have actually solved it. So you don't have a very good custom system. People buy fuel, take it to the neighboring countries and you now think that by increasing the price, you are going to solve that problem. Have you ever considered changing that custom leadership with people that can actually do the work? So this is where we have been for DHKC Nigeria. We live the real deal, which is looking at how to use marriage to run things. Just keep fighting. Okay, if I change the price of the fuel, it becomes more expensive in Nigeria so that somebody from Togo or Benarepublica cannot come and buy it. But what if you say I'm going to have an enforcement system that will make it that anybody who wants to participate in that trade, if that fuel was bought from you, we shut it down? You'll find when you do that you don't now hurt people because you want to remove for a subsidy. So I'm not trying to say maybe there's anything so special in making those calls. I'm just saying that these things are self-evident, that Nigeria's economic system is not deep enough for us to allow a true market system to work. To work. Our custom keeps reporting record revenue. What is it reporting? It's just telling you that Nigeria is being de-industrialized and we are importing things and importing everything. That is the reason why custom is making more money. But if custom can break that money into money related with exports money related with imports, let them show that the one related to exports is increasing. That's when we can celebrate Custom. But it's not even, it's only the imports, that's where. So that means you are saying the company in Aba, the company in Kanu, the Joss one, the Biggoss one, they are losing competitive positioning because you're making more money, because people are bringing things into the country. I do think if you don't have that paradigm shift, our long-term competitiveness will be weakened. Today the Dutch ASML, the number one semiconductor chip maker, is treating us as to China. The company that makes the leading computer-aided design tools for making microprocessors . The US government doesn't want it to send to China. And now Europe doesn't want it to send to China. And now Europe doesn't want Chinese EV vehicles to be imported into Europe because China is more competitive and better. They are restricting the market . But then if you come to my country, nigeria, by talking of, everything can be imported into Nigeria, even the almighty Europe cannot allow you to bring in things. So you say how can you invest in that economy If anybody can just go and import anything from Turkey? So this is where we are losing it that all these multinational, fast-moving consumer goods which are living. If you read their statement, they say we have not given up on the Nigerian market. They will close their factories . You'll still be buying their product because they will not be making those things. And we just think it's normal. That's it. we're still using Michelin tires , even though Michelin has closed in Patakot has closed in Patakot yeah and so that is where that leadership comes and that is where we say how can the young people I say it's not really about who can identify these things. The issue there is what are the institutional frameworks? And that's what I think only a crazy person can fix Nigeria identify these things. The issue there is what are the institutional frameworks? And that's what I think only a crazy person can fix Nigeria, and that person has to be someone who can make tough decisions, because the way we are today, we are not putting even our industries in a position to thrive. Areas that we have done well, like cement, is because there is a massive protection. Everything I'm just talking about Dancote cement, bua cement . It's not that they are smarter than it's just that there is a little kind of protection. Yeah, banking sector we have done well it. The banking sector we have done well is also because the cost efficiency a Nigerian company can produce something cannot be comparable to what a British or French company can, because those guys have more advanced system, more fun. If you are borrowing in Nigeria at 30%, they could be borrowing at 3%. So they are already winning you because the cost of capital for them is better If you now put them at the same pedestrian to compete on that free market. The Nigerian company has no chance. This is one of the things I'll tell the government that when we say, put some brakes on how poor our borders are, I'll say you are against free markets, because there's really nothing like free markets. Free market works when you are winning. You can see what they are doing with China now. They don't want free market anymore. Europeans don't want free market, but they will want free market with Nigeria Because they are winning us and we need to have that reality for us to be the leader nation. Speaker 1: Guys, like I said, we came to learn, we came to sit at the feet of the teacher. Most of these things he's telling us today, sharing with us, it's not as if we don't know them, but somehow hearing them again reinforces what I say the resolve to see that we need to see how we can wake up and make our country work. For the want of time I know his prof is pretty busy and I'm grateful for this time he gave I'm going to ask him this question. One last question about something he was involved in, because I read it Somehow. There's progress in that part of the country. He mentioned it in Kosovo's delivery, that's Aba. The last time I went to Aba I think that was when I was getting married I went to Aba to do one or two things and I told myself I will never step into that city again because the place was come on for a city like abba. But recently I saw the images and I'm hearing the testimonies. Prop, can you just say something about it, because I read one or two things you know which you put up on linkedin, and all that can you share with us please? Speaker 3: Yeah, of course, mr Governor, Dr Alex Oti, I'm so honored that it's a leader, that some of us do have an opportunity of working together and also sharing some I mean our little ideas. The most fascinating thing is he believes that we can do more and we should do more. So this is not a time to start celebrating, because, to a large extent, because to a large extent, if Aba has light or has root, it does not mean that Abareba, rochukwu or other areas and this is just more of saying small little things can actually transform the imaginations of our people and inspire people to do more. From Abia to Sokoto, to all parts of Nigeria, we need to build infrastructure. And without infrastructure, commerce cannot run. One of the most amazing things about the Western world is that they build a platform. They give you good roads, give you retro railway tracks, provide clean water. They give you electricity. They now say, go and build companies on top of them. If you don't build those platforms, it's very difficult to build things on top of them. So we just have to find a mechanism to build those, and once we do, we can now see massive developments in our communities because people can build infrastructure, build companies, create opportunities for people on top of. So that's what Aga State is trying to do and we continue to wish our leader, dr Alex Oti, the best as he continues to execute that. I mean, just look at what happened in the Birigiri area now with the flood. You can see the fierce urgency that Nigeria has to take infrastructure. But of course we do not have that ability to do it at the scale that we want urgency that Nigeria has to take infrastructure. But of course we do not have that ability to do it at the scale that we want. The little that we can do to inspire people to know that maybe leadership matters. And that's the big message, thank you. Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I appreciate this, prof, and I don't take this time you're giving to us within this uh space lightly. I'm very grateful so much, so much guys. I I just want you to, if you're on linkedin, even look for prof , go read his stuff, if not for anything, to stimulate you as in to see things differently, think differently, just like the Japanese would say you think differently and your product also be different. If you want to change your product, then you have to change your thought process, and I mean I tell you you will be so. Before I let you go, prof, I just want you to say that one last thing to my audience and to Nigeria listening to you at this very hour across the globe. Speaker 3: Thank you. Thank you so much for having me here. It's been a very great moment to share these constructs and the broad mechanics of market system, as well as how to drive efficiency in our beautiful country. I will say this the future is full of promises and if anybody tells you that the future does not have abundance, tell that person that Ndubisi said the future is going to be better. So let's just do the best we can to continue to improve position ourselves so that that promise of the future we can unlock it in our time and even for generations to come. Thank you so much for having me and do have a wonderful day. Thank you Amazing. Speaker 1: Thank you so much, guys. You heard it from him the future has so much. There's abundance in the future . So do not lose faith, do not lose hope and, like we always say it on the show, yes, this space the World Cafe Live Show is a safe space where we come to lean on one another's experience to forge a positive path. Today, we've just had so much energy come from Prof sharing with us, pointing to that bright future. Well, time is not always our us pointing to that bright future. Well, you know, time is not always our friend when we come into this space. It just you ask yourself. But we just started talking and all of a sudden it's almost an hour. Well, that is how it is, but I know this has blessed you in one way or the other. But you know how we say it on the show till I call your way again. Thank you, bye for now. Awesome time it has been with you on the World Cafe Podcast today. Thank you for being there. You can catch me up on my social media handles Twitter, facebook, linkedin and Instagram all at Amakri Isoboye. Also, you can get copies of my books A Cocktail of Words, the Color of Words by H Aaron Notebook and Hocus Pocus on God, on Amazon and Roving Heights online bookstores. You can also subscribe to my YouTube channel at the same address, at Amakri Isowe. I love to hear from you and how this podcast has impacted you. You can leave me a message at my email address, amakrigaribaldi at gmailcom. That is A-M-A-C-H-R-E-E-E-G-A-R-I-B-A-L-D-I . Yes, till I come your way again . Bye for now.