S3 Ep. 201 Exploring the Nigerian Dream: Leadership, Youth, and Economic Development

Speaker 1: Hello there, welcome to the World Cafe podcast. This podcast has been designed with created content that centers on the power of words. Can we really do anything without speaking? Can we really do anything without the agency of words? Yes, that is what this podcast is all about, and I am your host , amakri Isubie, your neighborhood word trader. I believe in the power of words , for it is the unit of creation . I trade in words to profit my world. Yes, back into that space, but I must start by greeting you. Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, good everything. Wherever you are on the surface of the earth, this very instant , watching and listening to me, how are you? How has it been? I must always ask that question because what I do largely is because of you out there listening to me and watching. Well, I'm reaching you from the center of Abuja yes, federal capital territory of my country, nigeria. What are we going to be doing today? I have amazing guests in the studio with me today and we will be talking about the Nigerian dream. Yes, with a question mark A lot of people. I had this conversation with a couple of people a while ago and I asked them do we have a dream , the Nigerian dream? Their responses left me like wow, really. So I have two amazing guests with me in the studio to discuss this, a reverend gentleman, actually, he's been with me all my life, let me put it that way Right from school we've been together. Reverend Prosper Isiche, you're welcome, don't worry, we'll come back. You introduce yourself. Let me not do the introduction. I'll just say one or two things and you come back. And I also have a developmental economist. I never knew. We knew ourselves way back, but somehow the way life works yes, victor alico, you're welcome. Thank you very much for having me, so I'm going to allow them introduce themselves. Then we go into the conversation I'm going to start with uh, mr victor alico, let's get to meet you fantastic. Speaker 2: Very good morning, very good afternoon, very good evening, depending on what part of the world you're joining us from. Joining my friends from the US will say good morning. Friends from Australia will say good evening. Those of us joining from Nigeria, some other African countries, will say good afternoon. So my name is Victor Alikor. I'm a development economist. I had my bachelor's and master's degree from University of Port Harcourt, went to University of Oxford to have a program in leadership and entrepreneurship. I also have a degree in corporate strategy from the University of London. So professionally I would say I'm a researcher. I work with ProInsight. Proinsight is an IT firm based in Ontario, canada, and I also co-founded a related book club, africa's Knowledge Community, where we read at least one book on leadership, development policy and business. And I would say I'm a husband, I'm a father, yeah, most importantly. Thank you. Speaker 1: Welcome. You heard him Amazing profile there, but don't worry, when we come back he will say much of his activities. Speaker 3: Reverend over to you. Thank you, I'm so glad I bear the name Reverend when I'm in church, but all the same, it's so good to say good morning and good afternoon and good evening to our audience, wherever you're joining us from. My name is Prosper Isichi and I have the privilege of working in multiple spheres, especially in leadership development. I trained in the University of Port-au-Côte prestigious University of Port-au-Côte, as a chemical engineer, but I've had other exposures both with leadership capital industries and as well within college in the US, on leadership and communications. I currently serve as a regional director for Sub-Saharan Africa Community Bible Study and the president for Threshold Christian Network, an indigenous youth development organization here in Nigeria, and I also serve as the lead consultant for Deep Lead, which is a leadership capital company. So that's the list. I'm married to a beautiful lady . I have three boys. Speaker 1: Amazing. You know, guys, when they would introduce themselves, they call that prestigious University. Just to let you guys know, we don't have dummies in Nigeria. I went to Uniport also, so you can see we have Amazing talent. Our educational system Not minding what we're hearing today it trains us For the global stage. That's the truth, the foundation, and I'm not ashamed anywhere I go, I say it Schooled in Uniport. Speaker 2: Unique. Speaker 1: Unique Uniport. So I'm going to start with Reverend on this. The Nigerian dream. From where you stand, guys? Sorry, my calling him Reverend, it's how am I going to put it. That's stand, guys. Sorry my calling him Revan, it's how am I going to put it. That's okay, forgive me the Nigerian dream. Do we have anything like that? Speaker 3: That's a very great question. Everybody has a dream for his country, in a way as a corporate entity, having a dream that we all affirm, that we all look towards ourselves, our children and our fathers driving towards a dream. No, I've not heard of that. But from individual perspective , groups of people, I've led a conversation of younger leaders in Nigeria trying to say what kind of Nigeria do you want to see in the future? I have a print I heard about Pastor Samademi had done such a great research work. Where are we going to as a country? Yes, there's a dream, as I think about the African Union 2063 project. Yes, there's a dream. Maybe it's coming from looking at sustainable development goals and the rest. You can see a bit of a dream, scattered dreams here and there my local church, we think about national transformation. We've got a dream, but corporately, as a country, saying that this is where we think we are going to and religious, non-religious children, adults are driving towards a dream, rowing in the same direction. Speaker 1: I don't know about that You're speaking. What came to my mind was what GF Kennedy said in that his famous speech Do not think of what America can do for you, but what you can do for America. So, victor, what do you have to say from your standpoint? Digging back on what Prosper just said? Now, consigning the corporate dream. Speaker 2: It's a big question. First of all, I want to ask myself what is a dream? Some persons will say dream is a cherished ambition, cherished aspiration, and when you cherish something that you aspire, it's a deal in hope. But again, if you look back at history I'm a student of history If you look back at history, if you look at Nigeria's happiness index we have what we call happiness index to look at the rate of happiness Nigerians at the time was considered one of the happiest people in the world . If you go back to what we call misery or hope index Hank's misery or hope index Nigerians had one of the worst in the world it means we're excited because we have hope. In the normal nigerian colloquial where we say you go better god day. A lot of us go to churches on sundays, go to mocks. We believe that we go to where our hope is reignited. We are reminded that the country is going to get better in reality. But what we see on the streets what I call economics of reality , corporate hope, corporate dream as a country looks slim, looks bleak compared to what our fathers witnessed a couple of years ago. Perhaps they had more opportunities, perhaps the opportunities was on the basis of merit for the few that existed then. But now Nigeria's corporate dream is what I don't understand the direction it's heading towards. But again, like I said, as a student of history, what Nigeria is currently facing today is what I don't understand, the direction it's heading towards. But again, like I said, as a student of history, what Nigeria is currently facing today is what United States of America surprisingly faced in the 1850s. They're one of the most corrupt countries in the world. They had poor life expectancy rates, had a corrupt public service system. What matters is what they did with their own situation. So for me, I think Nigeria is at that, what some people call apex or breaking point where we either decide to go worse than it is as a country, or we decide to change the trajectory. So for me, I still believe we can draw some hope out of our situation. Speaker 1: All right Now. Now it will get worse before it gets better. You know there's a philosophy in that direction, but sometimes I tell myself must it get worse before it gets better? So, professor, what do you have to say? Like you call samaday me, I will listen to him a lot. We have a lot of vibrant Christian leaders thought leaders, for that matter, like people like Bishop Oye Edipo, daddy Gio, as we call him. Can we place our finger and say , in terms of spiritual leadership, this is it in our country? Because, no matter what you say , the governance and economics of a nation cannot be pulled away from its spiritual compass. What's your take on that? Speaker 3: It's difficult to answer. Just like a pastor, because that's the family I belong in, I don't see Christianity just as a religion, but it's an experience when we have relationship with our Lord, we have redemption at the core of our driving force and we want to see His Lordship reign in all the domains of life, to see his lordship reign in all the domains of life. But I also do believe that a country is a reflection of its spiritual leadership or subscription of its people. So what I see today in Nigeria is also a reflection of the church of Nigeria. At least we know that only less than 2% of Nigerians say they don't have any subscription to any religion. If we had 220 million people in Nigeria, at least we know that more than 218 million people, or maybe 216 million people in Nigeria subscribe to a religion. If we do the simple mathematics that there are now 48% who could be Christians, then we should be saying we have more than 100, at least 100 million Christians who listen to pastors , better Pentecostals or Catholics or priests and whatever. And I can tell you there's no cohesion anywhere. Even within the same denomination, you can find dissenting voices viewing things in different directions. Yeah, even the gospel of Jesus Christ that unites us together. We are still polarized around it. I'm not even too clear again of what the gospel. So when I was growing up, the gospel was the gospel. Today the gospel is becoming relative, as it were, because you need to truly know what do I truly believe? You hear somebody speaking about a thing and you say where am I? Am I? So what is happening with doctrine, with our orthodoxy and orthopraxis, is also happening with our perception of our country and the dream for our country. So if we're not even sure, and together as it relates to biblical truth, then I can tell. If we're not even sure, and together as it relates to biblical truth, then I can tell you we're far apart as it relates to our national dream. So we're not there. The space where we are today, I believe, is a reflection of the church and the religious entities that we have around here, and I think if we get it right there, it's a matter of time. Speaker 1: How do we get it right? Yeah, so I think if we get it right there, it's a matter of time. How do we get it right? Speaker 3: Yeah. So I think there's a lot. Maybe a simple word as I was driving down here, I was just saying what's the simplest thing . I'm talking about Misbehavior amongst People. Misbehave, that's to say, if we have the people doing the right things or at least living up to what they believe, then you can see a positive change coming. Now pick everyone today in Nigeria, all of us. Just lift us as human beings and throw us out, maybe to South Korea, and pick all the South Koreans there. Then bring them down here to Nigeria. Nigeria is going to change in a few. Speaker 1: You mean the geography, nigeria, I mean the geography. Speaker 3: You will see this place change in a little. Just, the people behave well and everything comes together. So we're in a space of misbehavior, and if that is the issue, then we need credible models, at least who can practice what they preach and what they say in such a way that they can now have significant followership. And the simple formula in sociology on how to change a society is to get a square root of its population. A square root of its population . Once you find them rowing in the same direction, as a matter of time there's going to be a cultural change. So I yes, you see that everywhere, everything is going to change. He said no, I don't think it's just one answer, but I just feel how can we start behaving right ? I was driving down here also today and I saw the best way you describe people who drive in a car. They should be mad people, you know, and if you're not careful you become mad. Yes, even myself at times. I'm just telling you Because if you are sane, then it looks like you're the mad person If you want to drive the way we do. Just as simple as driving is. Speaker 1: Exactly. Speaker 3: Just like what's going on here Misbehavior. Recently I was standing on a queue somewhere and a sister I used to know before. So I said man of God, what are you doing there? Ah, no, please, please, you need to go to the front. I said that's a banking queue, is it long? I said don't worry, I'm okay. Then she walks to the front and makes a little trouble, brings me and says come in, use that machine please, I said, and then I walked out of the place. I called and I said why do you say in Nigeria, if you keep quiet, they will just outshine you. You have to open your eye. That's how to you know. I just couldn't believe that First she's a Christian, now she sees a pastor and then she brings me from the back of the queue, not because she's been entitled to that, not because I'm running for any emergency, but she knows that in Nigeria, if you want to get it, just do this. And the people are Supposedly yes, so, but I think misbehavior if we can find alignment just in little ways. it doesn't need to be drastic, but just people who can model it , who can live right. I use that simple example, like the traffic as I stay there. You don't see a siren. Once you see police, once you see military, once you see government, they break it. They tell us this is the way you should do it. But once we see people can do it right and they are true to their words, then they begin to speak to our conscience. And that is where the church has so much power, because they deal with the heart, they don't just deal with the mind. Amazing. Speaker 1: Fantastic. It's behavior. If we can get it right then, then it means everything will follow Now. Yes, the president, we just had our Independence Day celebration and, as usual, the president will always come up to , traditionally speaking, give certain words. He would make a speech, and all of that, and people always look out for the economic aspects of the speech. How will this impact on my business? How will it impact on my economic livelihood and all that ? What did you take out of it, victor, because I know, yes, you paid good attention to it, based on your practice and all of that, the president's speech in terms of the economy. Speaker 2: It was a mirage. It was playing to the gallery. It was perhaps just what we call for few righteousness. That Mr President must naturally make a speech every first October of each year. For me I will speak from the economic angle. If you look at what happens when a new administration comes on board, that's what they call presidential body language. Public servants, nigerians, will watch you the first six months, first one year, to see your body language. If it's a president that has zero tolerance for corruption, people will have to key in. If it's a president that supports corruption or encourages corruption or is aloof to corruption, people would also play along. And that's why, you see, when President Buhari came on board, people said Baba's body language , tinembu's body language. People want to see it and that's why, if you look at the central team of developing Nigeria, it must start from the leaders. People would see somebody that would be the shining light for them to follow suit. Some persons have argued for military to take over. Perhaps it will improve. I don't subscribe to the kaki boys, but I feel Nigeria as a country, we have lost our national value. Let me start from there. I was telling a couple of friends. I said if I'm privileged to meet. Mr President, if I'm privileged to request for an appointment, I would want to be the DG of National Orientation Agency, because I think our national value is where the starting point. He made mention of pulling people from South Korea. South Korea is the only country in the world that has no single natural resources, but they are one of the most and fastest developed country in the world. In fact, they are one of the youngest and fastest developed country in the world. In fact, they are one of the youngest to join the OECD countries in terms of development. So, but what am I saying in essence? There's a book I'm writing on development and part of my argument is we must see development as a driver who's driving a vehicle. When you drive, you drive with all sense of consciousness that any small mistake could lead to an accident, and that's why, even when accidents occur, they don't occur frequently, it's on rare occasion. So we must approach development with a consciousness that we want to see the country develop. From the economic standpoint, if I begin to rely on the statistics, nigeria has the highest number of people living in extreme poverty in the world. We have nearly 100 million Nigerians living below $1.9 per day. Nigeria has 133 million people that are multidimensionally poor . According to the Nigerian Bureau of Statistics, nigeria has the highest number of out-of-school children in the world 20 million people. Nigeria has the worst infant mortality rate for children living within the age of 0 to 5. Nigeria has two of the most dreaded terrorist organizations in the world. Two of the top five you can begin to read out the statistics have the worst in terms of housing in the world access to housing. It's believed that 31 million Nigerians are suffering acute hunger. It's believed that over 80 million Nigerians have no access to electricity. A lot of negatives. But what is Mr President's action towards all of these challenges? Are you telling Nigerians to endure when, from your body language, you don't show that you want to endure with them? Seeing issues around presidential yachts, seeing presidential fleet aircraft and all that. But the central essence of the conversation is I see a lot of Nigerians are still going to leave. Some have left. A lot have left A lot more are still going to leave. But I'll take a clue, from which is where I will just summarize my points. One I think Nigeria can benefit from the brain drain syndrome. A lot of us call it brain drain . A lot of people are living in top talent. But syndrome A lot of us call it brain drain A lot of people are living top talent but I think Nigeria can actually benefit from it. So Nigeria has one of the highest what we call diaspora financing, diaspora remittance. So we have a lot of Nigerians who are in the US, in the UK, in Germany, in different countries , and they're sending monies in hard currencies back to their families. So we call this diaspora remittance and Nigeria is benefiting hugely from this DAP spread remittance. But there's something that India did which I think Nigeria can take a clue from, especially in health. We have the Jaka syndrome for our doctors and healthcare professionals. India, in the last 30, 40 years , made a policy where they incentivized the healthcare system in India and said the best doctors, who are Indians, that were in US America. They say we are giving you interest free loans. India is ready for business. Come back to our economy. You have all the expertise oncologists, cardiologists and all that. Come back to the economy and let's see how we can develop our economy with interest free loans, with fairness to business practices and that's how, today , india is one of the best in terms of health tourism in the world. I think Nigeria, while we have a lot of our talents and live in the country, no worries, why not be able to have a quick fix to retain them from leaving? There is something we can always do in the next 10, 20, 15 years when we are ready for development, to bring these Nigerians, with their talent, with their exposure, with their expertise, to come back and develop our economy. Speaker 1: Now this aspect you just mentioned about the diaspora, remittances and what India had done. I think, if you look at what India did, they had this level of confidence or trust, as the case may be, when they were called to come back home, invest on interest free loans and what have you? We still have a lot of Nigerians out there who are asking this question where is the space to come and invest? Do we have that trust? Do you think the government is even willing to listen to such conversations? Speaker 2: Do you think? Yeah, so I spoke to who used to be the most senior civil servant in the United Kingdom. He used to be the former president of US Defeat, that's, british government development partners. He used to be my prof in Oxford . I spoke to him in one of our sessions on his book Gambling on Development. I said, victor, I would rather invest in Pakistan than invest in Nigeria. Speaker 1: Why. Speaker 2: A lot of investors know Nigeria is a toxic market at the moment to invest, correct . We have what we call public service corruption or bureaucratic bottlenecks. We want to raise their business now. Let's even try oil and gas or energy. A lot of bureaucratic bottlenecks we go through. Look at what Dangute is facing the international community. They are watching. That is Dangute a Nigerian, and that's why I tell people when people criticize him I say you're speaking from a shallow perspective. He's a Nigerian. It is only normal for him to enjoy benefits of being a Nigerian. There's what we call value chains connected to Dangote Refinery. I'm a development economist. Dangote alone is 40% of Nigerian stock market. The highest selling shares in Nigerian stock market is Dangote Cement. It's a Nigerian. You should enjoy government support. It's only normal. We've had DSTV because of Nigerian treatment, mtn rather, south African president spoke to Nigerian president because of MTN. These are companies you see as national interest, so I think such a business should be protected. Tangute is employing Nigerians. Everybody driving those tankers , virtually all of them are Nigerians, everybody working, whether cement, whether sugar, whether. So for me, nigerians market at the moment first, is filled with bureaucratic bottlenecks and corruption. There's issue around insecurity , which there is high level of political instability not from the federal now in terms of the state's tension, political tensions and all that. And also if you look at from the economic side, interest rate is surging. Those who are on loans from banks, households or businesses are suffering because they have to jack up their interest rate and it means you're paying more on loans from banks. Households or businesses are suffering because they have to jack up their interest rate and it means you're paying more on loans. So the economy is not favorable . Purchasing power is low. Nigerians' purchasing power is very low, even if our purchasing power parity is shaky. So Nigerians are living on essentials. When you have money now, you're thinking of food first, shelter . A lot of people are not thinking of clothing, some frivolities. People are cutting it down just to ensure that they meet essential and basic needs of life. So if what you're doing doesn't fall beyond that, within that essentials, you will struggle to survive in the Nigerian market. Your investment is not guaranteed. Governors can do what they call . They can steal your. There's no intellectual property in Nigeria. They can steal your intellectual property. So a lot of these issues are things we are battling with in Nigeria at the moment. But my worry is that which I tell people is the biggest. Nigeria is a service-based economy. We're not a production-based economy. What it means is you see a lot of what I call WWE not wrestling now, but wealth without enterprise. You see people who are agents in FCT or Buja. They will tell you their agents are taking 20% or doing nothing , nearly nothing and such economy are not the kind of economy we need for progress. We need production, we need people to manufacture, we need agriculture. These are what we call the real sectors in economics and these are the real sectors that snowballs into real development, that assist issues on essentials employ people, grow the economy, ensure that a lot of our youth are employed, what we call inclusive growth, inclusive development, address poverty, address issues around unemployment, make food available, readily available. So these are the key essentials we should be looking at, and not necessarily what Mr President is saying on his presidential. But I want to see a situation where our political leaders will manifest their manifestos. Speaker 3: You know, Amag. Speaker 1: Sebe. Speaker 3: I like the way the question you're asking him that why will Nigeria not embrace something like India did? And I've seen people who had they have very great prospects sometimes make an invitation in any direction but nobody will answer you if they don't trust you. Speaker 2: True. Speaker 3: Our government unfortunately cannot be trusted. The policies of a government that comes in for four years can even change before the four years is over, because they have interests. In fact, it's only Nigeria. I've seen politicians come out publicly during campaign, not even in office, to say that politics is a game of personal interest. They say that to those voting for them With impunity, because it's my interest, it's not about you. Then I see a selfish, self-acclaimed or self-made person invite me to leave my thriving enterprise in America to return back to a country where his interests can move me in any direction any month. That should be madness. It's madness, and our economics and our politics is so structured that it breeds mistrust. In fact, you tell your people within your circle of influence don't trust anybody. It's you know. I don't know how to. I'm not an economist, I'm not into other, I'm a Christian young leader. But as I look around, it's because I know the one who called me to be here. I don't see any reason why I should be in Nigeria. But the one who called me can be trusted and that is God, the one who said prosper, stay here and do this. I am willing to do it whether it's turning out well or not, but I just trust him because I know that if he says that he's able to stay true. We need leaders we can trust. We need a political structure that we can even trust. We need a system, and that's where your conversation today calls a dream, calls a attention . I think all of us. What's a dream? Where are we heading for? How can we wait for politicians some who don't even know whether they are going to win, or who don't even know where they are going to come, and paint useless pictures in their campaign on their campaign train, and then come and implement nonsense and we accept it? Once they start misbehaving, we say, okay, after just only four years, let's wait for the next three years, let's see what we're going to do. We waste three years. But if we had a corporate dream , a dream becomes like a mold. It may not be a mold, but somewhere we're driving so that, whatever party you're coming from, we can at least believe that this is, we're rowing in this direction, and least believe that this is, yeah, we are rolling in this direction. And then that mold tells us that this leader is performing or not performing. You don't need to come to my community and bamboozle me with roads, great roads. Here and there make some charade and then you say ah, that's a very wonderful leader, is that dream road? Is? Speaker 1: that dream road. Speaker 3: I don't know. Yes, we can't be sure there's going to be free education and then we see how people out of school up until today, and then you're just what's going on. If our dream as a country is to make sure that every child is in school, I can tell you government can not do it alone. My church is going to take up maybe like 20. Another church is going to take up like 2,000. Somebody is going to take people out. It becomes a corporate dream. The government is driving, everybody is driving. We're walking towards, we're rowing in the same direction, but our leaders unfortunately cannot be trusted. Speaker 2: So I'll give you. Let me just chip in a bit. I'll give you a small example, just to buttress what he said. If you look at, somebody asked me a couple of days ago and said , victor, between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, us election next month, who are you rooting for? I said I'm not interested in any of them. My reason is because anybody that wins will not change US foreign policy on Africa, on Nigeria. Whether Kamala Harris, whether Donald Trump, they will not. Us has a foreign policy that has existed for more than 100 years . Whether you're a Republican or Democrat, if you come in, you can't change it. It's fixated, it's static. You must work according to that foundation that was laid by the founding fathers. Again, just to buttress his point 2021,. We had a conference where we developed a national development plan for Nigeria, national economic plan for Nigeria. It was supposed to run from 2021 to 2025. And that development plan was proposed by President Buhari. Surprisingly, sini Bu came on board. The two key objectives of that plan was one to increase employment and to reduce poverty rates. His policy, announcing removal of subsidy and also floating in air, has negated that policy. Now it's upside down. Instead of removing more people from poverty, more people are entering into poverty Instead of creating more employment opportunity. A lot of people are losing their jobs. Some people can no longer survive, some people transport costs and all that. So it means the national development plan shot four years of a country. The same party has been jettisoned for something else. Remember, buhari was a fan of railway Maradi. Different railways it's a bygone project. There's no continuity in governance. So when you come on board and that's why I wrote an article on why politicians make continuity in governance so when you come on board and that's why I wrote an article on why politicians make policies in Nigeria they don't make policies for change, they make policies to win the next election. To win the next election, personal gain. So I speak German a bit. In German, that's what we call Beherst. Beherst is mastery. I understand the German economy . They are known for excellence. It's a value that mastery. I understand the German economy . They are known for excellence, it's a value. That's why, if you look at the energy space, you barely find Germans are the best in terms of one of the best in Europe in terms of energy. You won't see their panels. You won't see their solar equipment. They are quality, they are expensive. You see more of Indian, chinese and all that. As a country, we have lost our national identity. We have lost our national identity. We have lost our national value . And I tell people Nigeria survives on corruption. We breed on corruption. Young men have excuse because of the bad economy as a reason to engage in internet fraud. Young women have excuse around the economy as a justification for engaging in prostitution. It's a booming economy, even here in FCT. When you leave a political position after four years, people in your village are asking us what did you do for us ? What they expect is part of your corruption proceeds. They should benefit from it. So it's a system. And I will round off with a story. There's a woman I won't mention the ministry I had a story I had In FCT, abuja, here, nigeria's capital. She was asked to engage. She was, I think, a mid-director of procurement and she attends one of the orthodox stiff of religious quote-unquote churches in Nigeria. And she was asked, she was appointed to that position. A lot of people kicked against it at the time. They transferred her and later they brought her back. But of course you know so many civil servants who are paid 200,000 to 50,000 naira in Abuja , but they stay in houses of 100 million. It's from procurement corruption, fraud. That's where it starts from. Procurement is where all the contracts go from and when the woman blocked it off, they ganged up and, surprisingly, they killed the woman. She died and the next two days somebody replaced her. So the life wire of Nigeria is corruption. Because we have lost our national identity, lost our national value. But who can correct that? Abnormally? It's the leader. We trickle down from the leader to the followers. You can't trickle down from the leader to the followers. It can't trickle down from the followers to the leaders. And I tell people there's a strong correlation between the health of a country and the development. The healthier the citizens of a country, the better their level of economic growth and the more educated the citizens of a country is, the better they are to make more informed decisions. It is leaders who would help improve the literacy rate in a country that will now make citizens to be literate enough to elect proper leaders. It is leaders that will drive followers to change the country and not followers driving leaders to change the leaders us to change the country and not follow us driving leaders to change the leaders we have. Speaker 1: we have, uh, an interesting, an interesting situation in our hands as a people, as a country, and no doubt about it. We can't run away from it. You know, sometimes we think help will come from abroad, like our Nigerian people, that will come to help us, as it were, will come from abroad, but the truth is it will only come from us. Now I was looking at statistics about the young population in the world. Nigeria has about, if not the youngest population. So if we do the projection for the next 50 years, nigeria will still be within that pool. That's correct, within that pool if you do the projections. So the question now is, with this number of human capital and how young, yet a good number, they're walking in the dark Like what's there for us. Is that not a dangerous ground to walk in? Speaker 3: Absolutely so. 70% of our population they say it's below 30 years. Speaker 2: That's correct. Speaker 3: And then the Nigerian median age is 18.1. That's half of Nigerians 18.1 and below and the other half is 18.1 and above. So 110 million people are below 18 years and, like you used the word, they are walking in the dark. There is no direction. They just live every day not knowing where to go to, like I said, confusion even in the religious circle, tribal communities fighting here and there, in-house family fighting. Now families, because of poverty in these recent times, have begun to sell their natural inheritance Farmlands, even to their father's grave. They are selling, they want to find something to eat. Troubles squabbles, so no direction. And Ibles squabbles, so no direction. And I just, in my own simple way, what I started doing, both in my local church and as I speak to young people development projects, at least there's a small thing they call the SDGs. At least let there be something we are walking around Thinking about no more poverty, life on water, life on land, life on sea , life beneath. You know healthy cities, sustainable cities, you know different elements and I say what connects with you here? Just something you want, you feel that your soul calls out, that you like to live for, you like to invest your life in, and you know, something that can give them a sense of direction. Because even the local churches , even my church, as we are doing our social transformation, at least it should be within a framework. So since there's no Nigerian dream yet that we can say this, is it at least there's SDG that somehow we know our government subscribe to, at least with lip service. So at least it becomes something, a document that can help us talk about how we can be involved or make use of our lives. These young people have potentials. The change that we saw that happened in China was driven by the young population. True, they invested in technology. And these guys? So sometimes I go out and just say the young generation tech savvy people, and just say the young generation tech-savvy people. I say please don't. That's a blanket statement. Not so much in Nigeria. How about this tech when more than 50 million young people in Nigeria have never seen a cell phone? They've not seen it, they've not done computer. Let's even talk about programming. Not done computer, let's even talk about programming. So you just call them tech savvy, tech savvy, tech savvy, these TikTok savvy, those guys, maybe not tech, the things that change a country. So I do believe that if the conversation today as little as this, like a podcast. It's something. What's the dream? What should we be living for? What should we pass on to our children? Even if I had only one more year to live and I have young children, what am I going to tell them? Some part, continue with this. This is where we're headed for. This is because once there's an inner drive and there's much by hope and possibly relationships , trusting relationships then we can move ahead. But, by the way, like you asked , they are wallowing in darkness and they will be our greatest undoing in the future. As I look at all these massive buildings in Abuja, they will come crumbling. The rich men, you will not sleep in your homes In Lagos. You will not sleep there. Let these young guys, let hunger pull them out. They have nothing to live for. They have nothing to lose. You have a lot to lose and they will make you lose it. Speaker 2: So I'm interested in the question too. Go ahead. I did a course on global health from Barcelona Institute for Global Health in Spain and part of my core interest area is population economics and if you look at it so there's an article I'm writing at the moment I think I'll publish it next week around how increased population in Nigeria is fueling or is being used as human resources for terrorism. At the moment, our population growth rate is 2.5% annually. So what it means is we have additional about 5 million people that join our population every year. If you look at the last one decade, the last 10 years, our economy has grown less than 2%. What it means? Because of COVID, when we slided into economic recessions on two occasions and all that. So what it means is our population is growing at 2.5% annually and our economy, in the last same 10 years, has grown less than 2%. Our economy is growing faster than the. Our population is growing faster than the economy. Then you say dangerous thing. No development, no developed society in the world. Quote me anywhere. No OECD country in the world has a population growth rate of 2.5% is very high, very high, and that's how India overtook China as the largest country in the world today. India has higher population growth rate than China. China is about 0%. So what does it tell you? Some school of thought have argued that poverty, when people are poor perhaps a man and a woman, he has so many wives they go to farm before 12, because of the sun. One day they are back and they start making babies, start having sex, you see procreation, Procreation when you're very busy when you're very occupied, you hardly have time for such pleasure that would snowball into having kids. So there's a strong relationship between poverty and population. Population can be an advantage. Like you mentioned, we have one of the youngest youthful population. I saw a report. Sub-saharan Africa will have 33% of global workforce by 2050. That's massive, but we can utilize this population to our advantage. Look at the three biggest economies in the world. The US is one, china is second, india is third. These three countries are the three largest countries in the world by population. So it shows you that size of the economy of a country has a relationship with the population . Before now, nigeria used to be the biggest economy in Africa. The German economy I'm to be the biggest economy in Africa the German economy I'm talking is the biggest economy in Europe . They are the second largest country in Europe. So there's a strong correlation between population and size of economy. It then means if you use your population of your youth to your advantage, they will help grow your economy, even military strength and all that. It could be an advantage to you . The technology he mentioned it could be an advantage to you. The technology he mentioned it could be a huge. Indians have a massive land. Chinese are massively taking global economy in it. They have used it to advantage in nigeria. If we can use our massive population to advantage, it would be a plus to us. But if we can't, and if we don't the next few years, like you said, not only terrorism from the north, not only cultism and kidnapping from the south, but I foresee we might begin to eat ourselves if care is not taken. But I hope it doesn't get to that. Speaker 1: It will not get to that. Guys, we've been having this wonderful conversation on the Nigerian dream. You will agree with me, it's been amazing. My producer is tugging me for the sake of time. I would have loved to keep them here beyond, but you know, when the producer tells you your time is up and you have to, Don't worry, we'll have them back in the studio again in no time to you know, discuss more on not just topics like this, on , you know, similar topics on our country development and what have you. But you will agree with me, we've had an amazing time. We've had an amazing time and I'm going to give each of them 30 seconds for last words. I'll start with Reverend Prosper. Speaker 3: So let me borrow the words of my dear friend If we use what we have well I'm prefacing if we use our advantage well, then we can become another prosperous country. Well then we can become another prosperous country. So this time we're not only talking about the population use our population well. Not about that. We're talking about religion, as it were, faith. Use faith well, as we're talking about dream. If we can find them, let's use what we have well, and then we'll be in a better space for the future. Speaker 2: Victor, my parting words I would say to Nigerians, to the followers must build a society we want to live in. To our leaders I would always say they should manifest their manifestos and, most importantly , like you rightly said, nobody can pretend to understand Nigeria or feel our pain better than we Nigerians. Absolutely, we must fix our problems ourselves, Not later, but now. Speaker 1: Amazing, guys. Nobody can be more Nigerian than you and I. I remember once I traveled out of this country and somebody looked at me in our conversation and said you look like an American. I turned and looked at him and said I am not. I'm a Nigerian to my bones. We're proud of our heritage and who we are. I've never seen a Nigerian denying it, saying I'm not a Nigerian, oh yes, it's very rare . So nobody can fix us but us. Well, guys, I wish I could go on and on, but we're here. Yes, I'm in the World Cafe live show. We're here to bring such narratives and conversations to you, to provoke your thinking and also put you in the right direction. There's hope for us. I believe that strongly. There is hope for us. Well, I'm calling on you. Yes, you can follow us on all our I mean channels, you know, have you subscribed to this? Please do Go ahead At Amakri. That's it. Youtube, instagram Now they call it X, not Twitter. You'll find us everywhere, you know. Follow us, like, comment, share . Let more people hear about this and let them come on the bandwagon. Yes, till I come your way again . I won't scream this time before I say bye. For now, I have something for my guest before I say bye, for now I have some some, some some. Yes, you know, it was my wife's idea when I told her what do we give to guests on the show, and she's just like, why don't we give them a pillow or something to maybe help them sleep on? Inspire and all of that. So this is for you. This is for you, thank you. From the World Cafe. Uh, thank you for coming. Thank you for being part of this. We really appreciate it. So, guys, this is how we wrap up on today's episode of the show. Till I come your way again. Awesome time it has been with you on the World Cafe podcast today. Thank you for being there. You can catch me up on my social media handles Twitter, facebook, linkedin and Instagram , all at Amakri Isoboye. Also, you can get copies of my books A Cocktail of Words, the Color of Words by H Aaron Notebook and Hocus Pocus on God on Amazon and Roving Heights online bookstores. You can also subscribe to my YouTube channel at the same address at Amakri Issawe. I love to hear from you and how this podcast has impacted you. You can leave me a message at my email address at macrigaribaldi at gmailcom. That is A-M-A-C-H-R-E-E-E-G-A-R-I-B-A-L-D-I . Yes, till I come your way again . Bye for now.